About the 25 Point Penalty
by
Robert Betts
(Age: 62)
copyright 07-25-2005
Age Rating: 7 to 127
Recently we had a case of several people rating a work with 5 stars, in other words, perfect.
The work contained numerous, totally obvious mis-spellings and whole phrases capitalized. In proper grammar, capitalization is used only for proper names, beginning word of a sentence and the word "I". It is NEVER used as I just did with the word "never." Emphasis, if desired, can be achieved by other means: italics, the dash or exclamation mark.
Punctuation: This is never correct !!!!!!! Comma's, exclamation marks and question marks are used singly only.
At PnP we do not rate works "because he's my friend" or "I never give a low rating", or any other reason other than judging the literary quality of a work. This means proper spelling, proper grammar and a quality theme. PnP is not a blog site. Endless ramblings about what happened to you today are not appropriate at PnP. If you wish to do that, fine. There are many blog sites which will welcome this.
We are not going to examine points you give with any fine-toothed comb. We will assess the 25 point penalty when it is totally obvious that the work was rated either too high or too low. Giving zero stars is the same as "no comment." It does not affect the work's or author's totals.
Giving inappropriate points to works renders the PnP points system and rating stars totally useless. There then is no difference between a work with 5 stars or one with zero. It devalues deserving works and boosts poor ones.
All of this has one main purpose. It is not helpful to an author to give inappropriate critique or points. Giving a perfect score to a poor work encourages that author to continue to write poorly. Giving a poor score to an excellent work discourages that author just as much. One of our main goals at PnP is to help people improve. We don't care if they are awful writers... we care about seeing them improve.
Readers (soon to come), though they do not earn points as writers do, will be subject to the same penalty, even though it may set their points into the negative.
Help Us Stop Plagiarism -
Nearly all works at PnP are original. However a few people choose to plagiarize.
To check, choose a phrase from the work, then either drag and drop to the search box or copy and paste.
click on search and works at Google will be shown which match. Just to be sure, please do this before
you recommend or rate the work highly...
I can agree to this, I've noticed works like this many times. I don't pick up little things like homophones and the like, but punctuation and capitalization really stand out to me. Even if I love the topic and flow of a poem with a nice amount errors, than I'll only give three or four points. Although some of my friends use capitals when a character is yelling, I antagonize them and dog them to correct it before I give them five points, if the work is deserving. With people that I'm just commenting randomly on, I give them the lower praise right off the bat and politely tell them to fix their errors. :) Ahhh, my poor friends...I really do give them good beatings!
I also agree with how if authors with poor work are given high praise, they won't improve. I'm not afraid to give a low rating, because I'm a picky old thing too... Eep, got side-tracked for a moment... But like I was saying, when I joined and started writing poetry I had mainly adult authors reading my works. Two of them I greatly miss are SamiJo and Anthony. Because I had mainly adult authors and I now have mainly readers my age, I don't always get as intelligent comments. I'm not going to give any names, but I'm a picky soul... But my point was that when I first joined, I read the poems of SamiJo and wanted to one day, have poems as good as hers. I love her dark poems to this day! "Sea of the Lost" will always be one of my favorites, because she was like a roll model for me with her poetry. Her opinions on my works meant a lot to me, so I was always striving to become an equal to her writing ability. I still think of her works when I type dark poems. Because of the opinions and suggestions I got when I first joined, that's why my more recent poems have higher ratings. To those people I thank, and I hope to also comment on the works of some newbie and help he or she improve.
Leigh of the Commenting Community
P.S. Wiseacre talking, should I give you four points of praise even though you have examples of bad grammar? :p Only kidding.
We have tried just about everything that man or God could imagine to try to get people to PRAISE/RATE WORKS FAIRLY ! This is yet one more attempt.
Let me say this a few times:
PRAISE/RATE WORKS FAIRLY !
PRAISE/RATE WORKS FAIRLY !
PRAISE/RATE WORKS FAIRLY !
PRAISE/RATE WORKS FAIRLY !
If you are giving EVERYONE a "5" for whatever reason then your ratings become totally worthless. They don't do a blasted thing to help the writer which is the entire idea behind praise/rating. He soon learns that you give everyone a "5" so it becomes obvious to him that your praise/ratings are always worthless. Do yourself and writers a REAL favor and don't bother if it's too much effort for you to give a Fair and Considered Praise/Rating. Ratings should vary to be a fair assessment of the quality of a work.
Sorry for my loss of patience but those who read this article have NO IDEA how much time and effort I have put into making a rating/praise system that truly reflects the quality of a work.
Guess I'm confused. I haven't been here for a while. It appears I can comment, but not praise. Then, because I cannot praise, the window asks, "Does this work really deserve 0 points of praise?" And it wants to penalize me if my ranking is wrong?
I am not sure I like the praise/point system at all. What does it really do? The author, after finding out how many points he/she received, is now thinking about how to get more points and not truly concentrating on the content of their work. Also I see the person critiquing the poem is somewhat given more credit for being a teacher than they probably deserve. If poetry is to be rated, let someone equivalent to Emily Dickinson or Elizabeth Barret Browning or Poe, (I know they are Dead Poets) do it. However, I am not sure I have run across a poet that could stand up to Poe or Browning or Dickinson, in my travels in this artistry. Truth is, they would be the only ones qualified without being professors of Literature. One more thing, the rating of poetry by other poets is too bias. Let the general public make comments or rate the author and poem, that would be the most genuine and honest opinion. Then it would not be necessary to penalize the reviewer and hurt their feelings just because they thought one poet deserved a higher score than another or vice verse. When one reads anything, it can bring about feelings that the piece has given you. Good or bad, everyone has different tastes. "The general public" is your ultimate reader for the entertainment and/or knowledge value from what you write anyway. Who better to judge? Well, that is my story and I'm stickin' to it. (giggle) I say your 25 point penalty to the reviewer is bunk.
I taught English Law Logistics at Harvard Law School, to classes of students who wanted to become litigators. Believe me rating their work became a frenzy of emotional outbreaks from those who had definite disagreements. Trust me, I taught them how to use the English language to get the results they wanted, and I taught them well.
That is the reason for my opinion here. Thank you for reading it, however I am not the policy maker only an opinion stater.
Cylvya
I have to agree with this idea entirely, Bob. I feel that if they write a perfect work with absolutely no errors they deserve a 5 praise level. I have not seen anything quite worthy of that, very rarely do I.
I like the idea and think if it should be adapted and something that the directors should look at carefully. Maybe make those with 5 praise more noticeable where the approvals are done?
Just thought I would give my thought on this matter.
If you are going to use a point deduction system you should have a spot that has to be filled in with a reason why for a 5 or 1 star rating. This does not have to be seen by the authors, but should be review by the screeners. It is only fair. I am not one for good punctuation, but I know a good poem when I see one chalked full of meaning.
Andrew,
First it seems an obvious assumption that bob is the culprit behind instituting the new policy. Such is not the case. This came about because one of our writers who writes excellent works was upset because his/her writings were considered to be exactly as good or bad as someone who spells so, sooooooooooooooooooooooooo and writes I SAID THIS??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!.... etc.
We have one member who is 7, and she writes far better than this, so I do not see where age has a thing to do with this. If the young person needs help, fine; help him/her. But telling him/her that their works are perfect, deserving of 5 stars is not a help at all. It encourages the young person to continue writing in the same manner and not ever improving, as I said above. I then get an email from that person saying, "Everone else things I'm PURFECT, so WHAT"S YOU'RE problem !!!!!!!!!!"
What is needed is one-on-one help through our email system. And yes, some are doing that and helping directly. When that happens, there is always improvement. That's one of PnP's main goals -- to take any writer, no matter how bad or good and help make them better than they were.
bob
Honestly, we really don't mind how you rate, or your criteria. This deduction will be used rarely, if ever. From what I understand with Bob, we will give warning first. The only time we will do this is if we notice any of the following:
-Perfects on works with clear, EXTREME grammatical errors (such as using punctuation like: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! instead of just ! ), no attempts at spell checking, and in dire need of help. (REALLY, you guys...a few minor errors we won't notice. We're talking about the extremes)
-An INCREDIBLY LOW rating on a work that has no major errors, an average higher score, with no explanation of why. (If you can't afford the points, then don't score. By scoring lower, you lower the average, and make it look like a lower quality work).
-Playing favoritism (giving VERY LOW MARKS on all works but yours and your families/best friends/certain few people). That means, if I were to say "Andrew, you suck today, so Anthony is my new best friend" and gave Anthony all fives, and Andrew all ones.
We also understand that some of the younger authors don't understand how to italicize. That's all right. As we said, we're all here to learn. ALL OF US. So keep their age in mind. It is all right if they do that, but ultimately, we want to show them how. So think they don't know? Then tell them.
Isn't that easy?
So see...this is what has to happen for the 25 points to be docked. Even then, you will be warned first. So chill...it's not as bad as you think.
I think you are right in insisting that works be rated appropriately. However, different people rate works based on different criteria. Not to criticize this new policy, but it may tend to make readers feel as though they are teachers grading a students work(checking for spelling mistakes and so forth). I have to admit that I have given high praise to works that had errors in it, because I tend to rate works on the content and intent rather than the spelling and grammer-I also keep in mind the age of the writer. I do understand that this new policy could be beneficial in so far as it will help writers becaome better at their craft, however, I agree with Kathryn's first comment where she expresses her concern that this may cause people to be reluctant to give perfect scores. Maybe I don't understand the policy correctly.
As I understand it, if you or anyone else who approves the comments, feels as thought the points given were inappropriate, then the commenter is penalized points? Please tell me I'm wrong on this.I'm sure a lot of people here feel the same way, and I think it would help to clarify this new policy a little.
Also, one of your points mentioned the appropriate use of capital letters. I'm not sure a twelve year old would know how to use html to make italics, or know enough to find out how.
As I said before-I love this site, and if this comments seems like a complaint, please know that it is only out of concern that this new system may cause problems and I am only voicing my concerns.
If I misunderstood this policy, please e-mail me and let me know how it really works. To be honest, I now feel restricted on how I can leave comments and no longer feel as if I can rate things based on my own criteria and opinion. Instead, I now feel that when I leave a comment, I'll have to say to myself, 'Now what would Bob rate this?'
Incidentally, despite the fact that this is a little upsetting, I don't ever intend to abandon this site because of a dispute. I will stick with this site for as long as I able and work around any problems that may arise from time to time.Believe me, I face worse problems than this at my job everyday and I've been there for eight years now.
So again, I hope you are not angry with me that I don't agree with this policy. I just think it's a little rough and restrictive. Again, if I have misunderstood how this works, let me know.
Also, I tend to write a lot of 'silly' moon notes, because I believe people can use a good laugh once in a while. Let me know if you think my moon notes are inappropriate and I will stop them.
And may Sailor Mercury's light shine upon you.
Ouch, I feel like the teacher just whacked me across the hand with a ruler! What if we are terrible spellers( and I know you really put the spell checker on for my bad spelling on comments ) and we don't see the misspellings. I will try to be better, I will try to be better, I will try to be better, ect., ect., ect.
Your idea is another good one and I will try to give proper praise, henceforth! I'd give you five, but noone's perfect
If people read the above carefully they will realize:
1) That we don't intend to split hairs.
2) Being to be too conservative and not giving a perfect work 5 stars is just as bad as the opposite... in other words, giving 3 "just to be safe" could get you into trouble if you do that to a perfect work.
The overall concept and goal of this is just to encourage everyone to be fair. If it deserves 5, give it that, if it's awful, 1 is appropriate. A zero is the same as "No Comment." It is not figured into the averages.
It sounds like a good system, but it has it's flaws. I see this as a way of discouraging praise. "Oh no, I'm going to lose points... um... I'll just give everything 3's so I'm safe."
So things that deserve a 5 won't get them because you're threatening to take points away. And to be honest, they're not that easy to get. Especially if you'd prefer to be writing, rather than reading.
It's in big intimidating red letters that scream at me that I'm wrong for trying to praise the work at all. We're all human, none of us are perfect, so none of us are worthy of a 5? Just a thought.
Welcome !
